NEW INTERVIEW SERIES – PICTURE HOOKS DISCUSSES

In our first interview, Vivian chats to former teacher, university lecturer, and founder of Just Imagine, Nikki Gamble.

Just Imagine works extensively with schools in the UK and internationally to develop outstanding reading and writing, where stories and literature are placed firmly at the heart of learning.

Let’s see what they have to say about the wonderful world of picture books!

FULL TRANSCRIPT

PICTURE HOOKS DISCUSSES | VIVIAN FRENCH & NIKKI GAMBLE

NIKKI:  Picture books were really my beginning, by which I mean they were an important part of my own childhood. And also, they played a critical role in my decision to become a teacher. They were absolutely central to that, and that was because of the transformative power of picture books that I experienced when I was growing up. So, I’d just like to take you back, if I may, to 1963.

So, in 1963, I was three years old. My dad was an artist. And he brought home one day this very special book called, Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak. I thought he brought it for me. I later learned when I left home at 18 and wasn’t allowed to take this book with me, that he’d really bought it for himself. That’s another story. 

So, three years old. My dad read this book to me probably every night, maybe once or twice, and when we got to the wild rumpus, he would lift me on his shoulders, cavort around the living room, and then dump me unceremoniously onto the cushions of the sofa, just as Max tells the monsters to be still.

At three years old, I can still remember incanting the words from that text, and I bet you can remember them off by heart. They were almost like a magic spell.

And what makes it so great in terms of a child’s experience? Well, first of all, it’s the rhythms and the cadences of that text, like an ebb and a flow of the sea itself, like the pulsing of blood through your veins and your heartbeat. You know that when you hear a text like that, that Maurice Sendak must himself have heard many stories being read to him.

And it’s a book in which we learn so many things. We learn so many things, but Sendak is never talking to us like a teacher. He’s never telling us how to behave. He’s just showing us how it is. And I think that’s another thing that children, very young children, can cope with. The most profound of experiences, even if they can’t articulate it. That’s all going on in their brain. So, he’s not concerned with the socializing concerns of adulthood.

And of course. It’s those illustrations, they’re hugely imaginative. Those monsters that are scary, yes, but not terrifying because after all, they’re smiling at you. And I think again, you know, not being too searing in your, depictions in picture books, children, even very young children, like that frisson of something that’s just a little bit scary.

In terms of reading and writing, through that book you have an introduction to literary language. You’ve got an immersion in pattern language. You learn how stories work. Importantly, you have motivation to read. Who wouldn’t want to read a book like that? 

So, you’re learning that the endeavour of learning to read is going to be worth it because the stories are good enough. So, I think all of those things you learn in somebody’s lap with a picture book. 

I’ve just recounted my own childhood experience with where the wild things are. This is actually going back to my son’s experience. So, obviously we know Eric Carl from the Very hungry Caterpillar. For me, this is his – I don’t know if you know this one – this is his best book as far as I’m concerned. And  it starts with this little boy here, this artist. And the text says, draw me a star. And the artist drew a star. It was a good star. And I won’t read you the whole book, but you can see as you go through this artist here, it’s really mirroring the creation–

VIVIAN: Yes.

NIKKI: –Of the world. 

VIVIAN: Beautiful book. 

NIKKI: And then the artist – the artist just disappeared. But he does come back after the flowers and the animals and the rain. And we notice on the double page spread in the middle of this book, for those people just listening, we have a rainbow, a house and a family. You know, he’s in the middle, stage of his life, and then the night comes.

The artist draws a dark night, and at the end he travels with his star across the night sky. So, at three and a half years old, my son said to me, as we read this book, and he was looking so intently at these pictures, and he said to me, where was I before? So, I said, I tried to explain where babies come from and he said, no, I know that, but where was I before?

And it was said with such intensity. And there was something in his attention to that artist– 

VIVIAN: Mm-hmm. 

NIKKI: –And I know that he was asking one of the most profound existential questions, and it was the pictures in that text that took him there.

VIVIAN: Draw Me a Star has so many double page spreads with no text, which takes me really onto my next question, which is the importance of silent picture books, picture books with no words.

NIKKI: And if you could see the size of my pile here, I have about 500 of these books.  And I could talk just for a whole podcast about those. But if I may, I first want [not] to take Issue, but to question the choice of, you know, the word ‘silent’ book. Now I know that that has been picked up because they’re not quite wordless books either, but let me just take you to a book that I picked up from the Bologna Children’s Book Fair. You know that they have a Silent Books exhibition every year. And it will perhaps explain why I don’t think these books are silent. This one is called Rumour.

VIVIAN: Yes. And it does have no words in it apart from the title, but a noisy book–

VIVIAN: Mm-hmm. 

NIKKI: –I never did see. So noise is kind of inferred through the pictures. But of course I also mean that they’re not silent in as much as they generate conversation between readers as well. So, in that sense, socially, they’re not silent books. Frank Serafini calls [them] visually rendered stories, and I know it’s only semantics, but that for me gets the closest to this kind of book.

In terms of what they can do for a reader? Well, again, it’s so diverse, do you remember Jan Ormerod’s books? 

VIVIAN: Oh yes. 

NIKKI: Sunshine and Moonlight. 

VIVIAN: I’ve got them both. Yes. 

NIKKI: Those actually take you through a child’s day. And they’re an opportunity, aren’t they, for a parent or an adult to actually talk that through together. So that co-construction of story that can go on with that, there’s also a sense in which if you don’t have English as your first language, you are on a level playing field with that book. 

So there’s that aspect of it. But there are silent books produced all over the world. And I think if you look at books, for example, those from Asia, they have a different kind of, aesthetic. And I think that they are about quiet contemplation. This one is one of my favorites, Susumu Shingu who’s a Japanese architect. He produced a book called Little Pond. 

This one is called Spider. I’ve got it in the French, but it’s only the title ’cause it’s wordless. And it literally is just as you go through the pages here, for those people just listening, a spider weaving its web. And it draws attention to that and it allows you to have some quiet contemplation about that process in a way that it extends your experience of the natural world. But you can go onto something really complex like, Istvan Banyai’s Zoom– 

VIVIAN: Oh yes, cool.

NIKKI: –Or the birthday cake sequence by Thé Tjong-Khing. And these are really complex puzzle solving wordless books. So even within that one genre, we have so many different experiences. For a reader, I think they’re marvellous. What do you think of them? 

VIVIAN: Oh, I love them. I use them such a lot. I mean, Journey, is one that I use an awful lot, in that you can use it for any age range, any there’s a school in here in Edinburgh, which has 16 different languages, and every child can unite over a wordless book. I mean, I dislike the word silent because children talk about them far more than they do about books with words in. So they’re a splendid starting point for discussion about what’s happening in the story. 

NIKKI: And of course, last year’s, uh, Carnegie winner for illustration was Erin Becker. 

VIVIAN: Yes. 

NIKKI: And I think what you do look backwards and forwards. In the book, you get to the end, but the end is not the end. It takes you back to the beginning. There’s always something to be discovered, in his books. Obviously the same author illustrators, as you’ve just mentioned of the journey, there’s so much innovation. That’s what I would say in the wordless or silent or visually rendered book, whatever we decide to call it.

You know, the very nature of these books is that they show, they don’t tell. 

VIVIAN: Yes. 

NIKKI: There are no words there. To pin the illustration down, I mean, it works both ways. Illustration can pin words down sometimes, and words can pin an illustration down. So they’re open in that respect. But it does vary. So, I think something like, you know, David, who is obviously a master of that form. Nobody could ever think that these are just for the very youngest children. You will go back to it, you will return to it. And even though I’ve read this, probably 250 times, I see something in it that’s new each time. But you know, it’s quite different if I read something like Susie Lee’s Wave, which is a lot simpler.

So I think it does, it does depend. 

VIVIAN: Yes. Do you have a favourite? If you could choose just one, what would it be? NIKKI: Which a book or a wordless book?

VIVIAN: Wordless book. 

NIKKI: Oh my goodness. You’re asking me difficult questions to pick favourites. I think, well, it’s likely to change every day. I do like the Korean, Japanese reflective quiet time with the book. There’s a great one called The Height of the Sky and the Depth of the Lake. I love that. 

VIVIAN: I’ll look out for that. One of the questions, I was wondering, what do picture books give a child that TV and screens don’t offer? 

NIKKI: Oh yes, you do ask the best questions, it has to be said. So, I wouldn’t get into the debate about one being better than the other because I think they all have their own affordances. But what I think a picture book offers that is special is that it’s a very intimate experience. Whether it’s being read alone or whether it’s being shared with someone else.

I think one of the ways in which it differs is that it’s a physical experience and it’s embodied by which, I mean, if you ever watch a child or group of children reading a picture book together, you can tell by the body language as they move into or away from the text, or the way that they hold the text that is a very physical – or the way they touch it – it’s a very physical and embodied experience. I think also you don’t move through time in the same way. So a screen, particularly if it’s a television or a film, it’s going to move past you. And I know you can use the button and stop it, but we don’t, generally, we allow it to move in front of our eyes.

And with a picture book, you will see children naturally, as I’m sure you’ve done many times, moving backwards and forwards, flicking through the book, taking their own time, moving at their own pace through it. I’d also say focus and concentration, particularly when you compare it to screens and scrolling. So this is a very focused activity, and I also think potentially a broader aesthetic experience because of the range of artwork that we have in picture books that we’re opening. I mean, they are mini works of art. That is what picture books are. So we are opening children’s eyes to that broad aesthetic range.

VIVIAN: and just thinking about picture books over the years, what changes have you noticed? Because you must have seen so many. I mean, there’s the picture books that you read like  where the wild things are when you were little, and then when your son was little and you are seeing new picture books coming through all the time. Are you enthusiastic about the direction that they’re taking at the moment, or do you feel that they’re missing things just now?

NIKKI: Enthusiastic, but you know, there are always pluses and minuses. Look, I got out a very old John Birmingham here, and look how tiny it is. You know, if they’re printing it today, it looks like that. Much bigger, so a more immersive experience. So there are things to do with the technology and the colour printing and the use of neon inks and all of those sorts of things that allow people to experiment and do things that they haven’t done before.

There are more topics that we cover now than we would’ve done, you know, in the 1960s. One of the things that you wanted to talk about was taboo subjects, and I think some of those taboos have been broken, like bereavement and death, certainly that occurs more, but it’s always about remembering the people who’ve gone, you know, and that aspect of it rather than the process of dying and what happens to us afterwards.

I do get reviewers fatigue actually, because I feel I’m picking up the same book so many times. I really don’t want to read another book about how much I love you– 

VIVIAN: Oh yeah.

NIKKI: –or how green we should be. Not that we shouldn’t be these things, but the same message being told in a very obvious way over and over again. There’s nothing obvious about draw me a star– 

VIVIAN: No. 

–there’s nothing really obvious about where the wild things are, and that is the worst thing, the worst trend for me is this very saccharine do the right thing, learn not to shout, learn to have friends. You do learn those things through stories. A story well told will bring those things to the surface without somebody wagging their finger at you. 

VIVIAN: So would you say there’s a lack of subtlety perhaps, more now than there used to be? 

NIKKI: I would say yes. And then you have some writers and illustrators who come through and they buck that trend, don’t they? I mean, people like Sidney Smith.

VIVIAN: I was going to say Sidney Smith. 

I mean, he’s superb. 

VIVIAN: Yes. 

NIKKI: You know, it takes us back to: there’s a soul here, there’s a voice here. Not just producing what they think the market wants next, but something that has touched them deeply. And because it’s touched them deeply, it’s going to touch their readers in the same way. 

VIVIAN: I think Town is By the Sea is a quite extraordinary book and it’s one that I use an enormous amount. I don’t know, do you use that one? 

NIKKI: It’s on the pile that I, now I can’t find it ’cause the piles are so big. But it’s on my pile of books that I wanted to say this is, fabulous. And also, Do You remember Me, which is his most recent authored and illustrated book, I mean, Town Is By the Sea isn’t, it’s just illustrated by Sidney Smith. But I agree, it’s an extraordinary book. But in Do You Remember obviously it, there’s a unification of his voice through the illustration and through the words in that book.

VIVIAN: I mean, we’ve talked about quite a number of particular books, but is there any that you would signal out as being of particular significance that should be in every child’s library?

NIKKI: there are people that I, I feel very strongly about their work. Ayman [MOU1] would be one I think. Levi Pinfold I think is extraordinary. So not necessarily for the youngest readers, uh, but his book, Greenling, again, I must have read that 300, 400 times. And even this past month, I saw something in it that I hadn’t seen before. So that kind of depth.

Things like poly Dunbar’s Penguin.

VIVIAN: Yes. 

NIKKI: Polly really, you know, understands so perfectly what a very young child, is like. And in a way, her book has that soul that takes me back to some of those books from the sixties and seventies that I was talking about. But there are so many, you know, Laura Carlin [is] another one whose artwork doesn’t condescend in any way to children, but they respond to those illustrations.

VIVIAN: Hmm. Yeah. How important do you think it is for a child to recognize themselves and does this change according to age? 

NIKKI: Of course, it’s hugely important that everybody can see themselves in a book, whether that’s to do with ethnicity or gender or religion or social class. People like Jerry Pinkney, the Great American illustrator who shows us that Little Red Riding Hood doesn’t have to have blonde hair. Two more modern books like Joseph Coelho’s absolutely fantastic Our Tower, and books that also represent all kinds of histories like Kwame Alexander and Kadir Nelson’s The Undefeated.

So I would say absolutely it’s important, but I also think that we shouldn’t be simplistic about what it means to see yourself in a book. It can mean, you know, I could respond as much to the characters in Our Tower and see myself in that book. It’s not only about the surface features. Plus I would say that, as well as seeing yourself in a book, picture books are also about seeing the world and seeing others, so I would like to see more internationalism in our picture books. This one’s Korean – it’s called I am the Subway, and it’s that, do you know it? 

VIVAN: Yes. Love that book. Yes. 

NIKKI: So we see people from all walks of life on the subway in Korea. So I don’t know if that answers your question, but yes and, you know, own voices, they’re really important. But let’s not get into, a place where we, as I say, just think about things on the surface because children respond in lots of ways to lots of different characters in stories.

VIVIAN: From your perspective as an expert in the field, what tips would you give to an emerging illustrator who wants to illustrate picture books?  are there trends and fashions? What would you recommend?

NIKKI: There are trends and fashions, but I would always recommend making sure you know what your voice is and what it is that you want to say first and foremost. And, yes, listen to what publishers say about trends and fashions but first and foremost have the courage of your convictions in terms of your voice and finding your voice.

And by that of course, I mean both the words and the illustration style. So that would be my best advice. 

VIVIAN: You mentioned earlier that you think that we’re more open-minded about subjects that were previously taboo, but when I’m in Bologna and I look at the Scandinavian stands, it seems to me that they cover far, far more than we do.

There are still limitations in the UK, I don’t know whether you feel that’s true. There was a wonderful, wonderful book I found called Birdies Dead. I don’t know whether you’ve seen that one, but the cover is a bird lying on its back with its legs in the air, and it is now published in English as well, but I asked a couple of publishers whether they would’ve taken that on in the UK publishing world and they said no. 

NIKKI: Mm-hmm. I saw a book in Japan many years ago that did the same sort of thing with a bird, but it was photographic. I’ve seen books that look at animals in varying states of decay through photographs in a book for children.

Nudity is one, isn’t it? Did you know there was a book, Tous à Poil. It’s a French book and it has a whole village, a community that go out bathing one day and they all take their clothes off from, you know, the largest woman and the smallest boy and the village policeman, and they’re all going swimming.

Adventure is often sanitized. So adventure has to be safe adventure. And I was talking to a Swedish illustrator, Gustavson who has been told to make his characters more attractive because when they’re angry, they look ugly. And he said, well, angry and sad affects the face in an ugly way. And he’s been told to ‘pretty up’ his pictures. 

Family dysfunction is something that we don’t see here, there’s a Norwegian book called Angry Man. I mean, that’s obviously the English translated title. But it is about a boy who lives with his family and his father gets very, very angry. And so it’s this kind of feeling of an abusive family. We, we don’t publish books like that here. And again, I’m sure that even in Norway, that that will have, you know, caused an outcry, but it wouldn’t get past the first post here, in the UK. 

VIVIAN: And what next for Just imagine. Where are you going to next? Has the new book about literacy and curriculum subjects in the primary school, is that publishing very soon or has it been published?

NIKKI: Hasn’t been published. It’s been delivered in September. So that’s my summer tied up. That will be nice. It’s 10 years worth of thinking though, so, you know, the pulling it together is just the final bit. I’ve got some new app developments, for supporting children’s development of their reading identity that’s about to be launched.

And you know, we are running a lot of online events Thursday evenings and ‘evening in’ with, and quite a lot of illustrators. We had a lovely chat between Kate Winter, who was last year’s Klaus Fluger winner, and Mini Gray. So that was a really interesting conversation. So those are Thursday evenings from September through to May.

VIVIAN: Is there anything that you wanted to add, or to ask me as just before we actually finish?

NIKKI: Just one point and that is, we’ve talked a lot about picture book fiction. And I would like to say that there’s a market out there for illustrated picture book nonfiction and last year’s Klaus  Fluger, winner Kate Winter The Fossil Girl was a nonfiction book. Things like, I can’t find anything now ’cause I’ve put books on top of books. But things like Flora Delargy’s Gold Rush, where, you know, the illustration really brings depth to what that text is about. Mini Gray’s, The Greatest Show on Earth. I’d like to see a lot more, high quality illustrated nonfiction where the illustration adds as just as it does with a picture book.

It’s the marrying of these two together. Illustrated nonfiction is not just decorating the text or adding context, it brings depth to it, and that’s what I’d like to see. 

VIVAN: I must admit, I always include that within my brief of picture books, I mean, as you know, I write quite a lot of it myself, but some of the books that Nicola Davies, for instance, has done, I mean, they’re fascinating. And not every single child loves imaginative, fictional, stories. Small children can be just as engrossed in stories about, I don’t know, money or worms or anything at all. So I think you’re absolutely right.

NIKKI: I’d really recommend to anybody that hasn’t had a look at it, that’s Flora Delargy. Emily Sutton. You mentioned Nicola Davies. Her illustrations for Green, which is one of Nicola’s more recent books has done wonders for nonfiction. 

VIVIAN: That book, I can’t remember what it’s called, that zigzag, and you pull it out and then there’s the earth at the top. And no, the sky at the top and the earth at the bottom is remarkable. 

NIKKI: That’s [The Street] Beneath my Feet, Charlotte Guillain and Yuval Zommer.

VIVIAN: And finally. If you could meet just one picture book character, who or what would it be? 

NIKKI: You ask me impossible questions. I’m not going to say Max or a wild thing. I think it would be great fun to travel with, Raymond Briggs, The Snowman, but actually I’m going to pick his Fungus, the Bogeyman. That’s who I’d like to meet.

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